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Women, Men, Mutuality, and the Bible CBE’s Mutuality Matters podcast is part of CBE International’s online library of free resources! Hosts of CBE’s Mutuality Matters team offer weekly conversations with leaders, pastors, authors, scholars, activists, and humanitarians on women, men, shared leadership, and Scripture. CBE International (Christians for Biblical Equality) advances the gospel by equipping women and men of all cultures, races, and classes to lead and serve as equals. Founded in 1989, CBE has supporters and ministry partners in over 100 denominations and 65 countries, and offers annual conferences, adult and youth curricula, a curated bookstore, multi-media resources, award-winning publications, and a blog. Learn more at cbeinternational.org.
Episodes

Friday Oct 28, 2022
Friday Oct 28, 2022
In this special episode of Mutuality Matters, hosts Layla and Rob interview three gender violence experts to learn how individuals and churches can be intentional about building safe and thriving mixed-gender ministry partnerships. Topics include the language of domestic violence, himpathy, why men batter, and practical steps for accountability and prevention in churches. Listen to this conversation that truly spanned the world, from Australia to the US to Great Britain, and learn how to prevent domestic violence within your community. Created to Thrive contributors highlighted in this episode are Natalie Collins, Chuck Derry, and Nicola (Nicky) Lock.
Guest Bios
- Natalie Collins is a gender justice specialist working with a number of organizations in the UK. Natalie speaks and writes on understanding and ending gender injustice nationally and internationally. Learn more at https://www.nataliecollins.info/
- Chuck Derry has been involved in efforts to end men’s violence against women since 1983. In 1994, he co-founded the Gender Violence Institute in Clearwater, Minnesota, an organization that among other things offers training on the dynamics of domestic violence. Reach Chuck at gvi@frontiernet.net.
- Nicola (Nicky) Lock serves as a course coordinator and lecturer in pastoral counseling at St. Mark's National Theological Center in Barton, Australia. Nicky has over 25 years of experience as a counselor, therapist, and educator. Find Nicky on LinkedIn and Facebook.
Other Reading

Friday Oct 21, 2022
Friday Oct 21, 2022
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests and do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
In acknowledgment of October being Domestic Violence Awareness month, this special episode of Mutuality Matters features a panel of Created to Thrive contributors who sit down with host Angela and share their thoughts about how the church can help people find healing from the trauma of domestic violence by creating safe spaces for women and families. As leaders, we have an opportunity to preach, teach and model healthy relationships between women and men grounded in respect and mutuality that honors the image of God reflected by both. Guests on today’s episode include Dr. Antoinette Alvarado, Dr. Jeanne Porter-King, and Rev. Johnrice Newton.
Bio
Rev. Johnrice Newton, a trained RN chaplain, is the founder and president of Tapestry Ministries, Inc., a nonprofit organization that offers a myriad of programs and services including providing emergency resources for women affected by domestic abuse. She published her book in 2016 titled Healing Voices: Women of Faith Who Survived Abuse Speak Out, Volume 1.
Dr. Jeanne Porter King is the founder and president of TransPorter Group Inc., a consulting practice that specializes in leadership development, diversity and inclusion training, process facilitation, and influence coaching. She has authored many books including Influence Starts with “I”: A Woman’s Guide to Unleashing the Power of Leading from Within, and Effective Change Around You.
Dr. Antoinette Alvarado is the co-pastor of Grace Church International, founder and executive director of My Sister’s Keeper Foundation for Women, and president of Targeted Living Coaching & Consulting, LLC. A dynamic preacher, teacher, and workshop presenter, she is also the author of Run and Not be Weary: The Pursuit of Purpose and Destiny among several other titles.
Other Reading:
Created to Thrive: https://cbeinternational.christianbook.com/created-thrive-cultivating-abuse-free-communities/9781939971906/pd/971900?event=ESRCG

Friday Oct 14, 2022
Friday Oct 14, 2022
Trigger Warning: This episode contains discussions on details pertaining to domestic violence. Listener discretion is advised.
In this episode, hosts Erin and Blake talk with contributing authors, Rebecca Kotz and Annette Oltmans, about their chapters in the new CBE International publication, Created to Thrive: Cultivating Abuse-Free Communities. They discuss how forms of abuse are covert and easy to dismiss while also helping us understand how we can help and not be a fresh source of harm to victims of abuse. Leaders, friends, and those wanting to address abuse will learn a great deal from this episode.
Be sure to pick up a copy of Created to Thrive and to connect with these other resources from our podcast guests: www.rebeccakotz.com and https://themendproject.com/.
If you are experiencing domestic violence and would like help, contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233.
Bios:
Rebecca Kotz is an advocate, speaker, community organizer, activist, liberation educator, consultant, and writer on sexual politics and feminism. She has worked at various social change and antiviolence organizations in Minnesota. She founded and facilitates a program for convicted male offenders, Men Accountable for Sexual Exploitation. She is currently finishing her master’s degree in social justice at Prescott College in Arizona. Find more of her work at www.rebeccakotz.com
Annette Oltmans (Founder and chairman of the board of directors of the M3ND Project) is a philanthropist and passionate human rights advocate. She is a survivor. Annette’s personal experiences of recovery and extensive field research into the topics of Original Abuse and Double Abuse® ignited Annette’s passion to found The M3ND Project in 2016. She conceptualized the term Double Abuse® naming the behaviors causing complex trauma (CPTSD) to victim survivors. In addition to this work, she serves on the board of Pepperdine University’s Boone Center for the Family and is a trustee of Northrise University in Zambia. Her writing on the topics of abuse, domestic violence, and bullying, has been published in AACC, Teen Vogue, OC Register, and other publications.
Other Reading:
“Are We Continuing to Sideline Women in Conversations about Abuse?” by Katherine Spearing
“He Made Her Play the Harlot: Judges 19 through the Lens of Domestic Abuse” by Evelyn Sweerts-Vermeulen
“Monica of Hippo: Influential Church Mother and Domestic Abuse Survivor” by Olivia Brokaw

Friday Oct 07, 2022
Friday Oct 07, 2022
On this week’s episode, hosts Mimi and Kim meet with Pauline Hassan Burkey to discuss her journey towards belonging as an immigrant to the United States. As a small child she, her mother, and her baby brother made the journey from a Kenyan refugee camp to San Diego, California, where she first learned to relate to the various cultures in which she was immersed. She also reflects on her mother breaking the Sudanese cultural codes around a woman’s place. Despite criticism from the women in her community, she served as an advocate and community organizer for her refugee community in San Diego, often the only woman serving among all men. Her mother modeled for Pauline how women can be whomever they are meant to be.
Bio: Pauline is the daughter of South-Sudanese refugees who resettled in the United States in 1994. She grew up in City Heights, a densely populated and vibrant community of immigrants and refugees in East San Diego. She studied Interpersonal and Organizational Communications and Journalism at Azusa Pacific University. She’s worked with refugee and immigrant communities, then moved to fund programs across sub-Saharan Africa. In 2016, she and her husband moved to Rwanda to continue working in international development. She is back in the United States and works as a program manager for PICO California, the largest multi-faith community organizing non-profit in California. Pauline married her college sweetheart Kenny. They currently live in Sacramento and recently welcomed their first child.
Other Reading:
Which Women Matter to God by Jill Lin https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/article/mutuality-blog-magazine/which-women-matter-god
Advocating for Equality Among the Marginalized by Nell Green
https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/audio/advocating-equality-among-marginalized

Saturday Oct 01, 2022
Saturday Oct 01, 2022
This month on the “Women and Men Leading Together” thread, hosts Layla and Rob speak with Bette Dickinson, an artist, and author who paints a beautiful picture of women and men partnering together in ministry, and of a church that listens to both the mother and father voices of God. Come learn from Bette as she exhorts us to systemic change, intentionally developing women, male advocacy, and elevating the stories of women.
Bio:
Bette Dickinson is a prophetic artist, writer, and speaker who invites audiences to connect with God through visual parables of the spiritual journey in her ministry Awakening the Soul. Bette earned her MDiv with an emphasis in pastoral studies and has worked with ministries like InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, World Vision, Infinitum, and Kensington Church to awaken the soul through beauty and wonder. Bette and her husband live in Traverse City, Michigan, with their two boys.
Connect with Bette
Facebook: @BetteLDickinson
Instagram: @Bette_Dickinson
Further Reading
Making Room in Advent by Bette Dickinson
https://www.ivpress.com/making-room-in-advent
To subscribe to Bette’s newsletter and receive a copy of her painting of Mary’s Magnificat along with an audio reflection, text justice to 33777.

Friday Sep 23, 2022
Introducing a Great Theologian: My Grandmother with Dr. Yolanda Pierce
Friday Sep 23, 2022
Friday Sep 23, 2022
On this episode of Mutuality Matters, host Angela sits down with Dr. Yolanda Pierce, dean of Howard University School of Divinity, and author of In My Grandmother’s House: Black Women, Faith, and the Stories We Inherit. Pierce lifts the role of church mothers in the Black church tradition, centering their experiences as they both taught and protected her so that as a Black woman she would survive in this world. Through them, she learned about, “The Divine who has been showing up at the kitchen tables of Black women for a long time.” Listen and learn how a grandmother’s theology carries wisdom strong enough for future generations. Disclaimer: sexual abuse and trauma are mentioned in this episode. Listener discretion is advised.
Further Reading:
In My Grandmother’s House Black Women, Faith, and the Stories We Inherit: https://www.amazon.com/My-Grandmothers-House-Stories-Inherit/dp/1506464718?tag=mochaglobal10-20&ascsubtag=srctok-b63e47f7a51c4734&btn_ref=srctok-b63e47f7a51c4734
Hell Without Fires: Slavery, Christianity, and the Antebellum Spiritual Narrative (History of African American Religions) https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Without-Fires-Christianity-African-American/dp/0813068592/ref=sr_1_1?crid=16ODZ9ZE394DV&keywords=Hell+without+Fires&qid=1663891253&s=books&sprefix=hell+without+fires%2Cstripbooks%2C92&sr=1-1’
Bio:
Yolanda Pierce is a professor and dean of Howard University School of Divinity. She is a scholar of African American religious history, womanist theology, race, and religion, as well as a public theologian, activist, and commentator. Pierce served as the founding director of the Center for the Study of African American Religious Life at the National Museum of African American History & Culture. Her writings have appeared in Time, Sojourners, and The Christian Century, and she is the author of the book Hell Without Fires. Pierce lives in Washington, D.C.
Web: yolandapierce.com
Twitter: @YNPierce
Facebook: /ynpierce

Friday Sep 16, 2022
(New Voices) Porn and Patriarchy with Mallory Ellington
Friday Sep 16, 2022
Friday Sep 16, 2022
On this week’s episode of Mutuality Matters, hosts Blake and Erin bring on guest and author, Mallory Ellington, to talk about the fall issue of Mutuality Magazine, “The Problem of Porn: Women, Men, Intimacy, and the Church.” With Erin and Mallory both contributing articles to this issue, the three discuss pornography, patriarchy, and other orbiting topics that are addressed in the magazine. This episode mentions issues of porn addiction, sexual violence, and struggles with sexual sin. Listener discretion is advised.
Get a digital copy of the magazine here: https://www.cbeinternational.org/publication/mutuality-blog-magazine/current-print-issue
Bio
Mallory Ellington is currently working as a prison GED instructor at Walker State Prison. She received her master of theological studies from Asbury Theological Seminary. She writes about the theology of the body, spiritual anthropology, and other topics that interest her. In her spare time, she loves sharing a cup of coffee with friends and chipping away at her ever-growing reading list.
Other Resources:
“Women Are People, Too” by Mallory Ellington
“Preaching Porneia” by Matthew Norman
“Is This Safe to Drink? Thoughts on Our Thirst for Intimacy” by Erin Moniz
Read more from Mallory Ellington: https://www.malloryellington.com/

Friday Sep 09, 2022
Friday Sep 09, 2022
On this episode of Mutuality Matters, hosts Mimi and Kim speak with Dr. Médine Moussounga Keener, coauthor of Impossible Love: The True Story of African Civil War, Miracles, Hope Against All Odds, Reconciliation for Africa, and Loved: Women Who Found Hope and Healing in Jesus. Médine believes that the Spirit of the Lord is at work in the world, and for those of us sensitive to the Spirit’s work, she shares how God can work in us to free people from oppression seen in sexism, racism, and classism. She illustrates the truth of these claims through stories from her own lived experience as a war refugee and scholar, as well as from her research and reflections shared by her many friends around the world.
Bio:
Dr. Médine Moussounga Keener (PhD, University of Paris) explores her life as a war-refugee, translator, scholar, author, and wife. Passionate about serving abused women in Africa, especially women at risk. Originally from Congo Brazzaville, Médine lived as a war refugee for eighteen months and worked as a translator first in Brazzaville and later in the US. Addressing her experiences of war and reconciliation, Médine has published articles in Dictionary of African Christian Biography, Africa Study Bible, and other articles on women in Africa. Medine coauthored with her husband, Dr. Craig S. Keener, Impossible Love: The True Story of an African Civil War, Miracles and Hope Against All Odds, a story of her war experience and her romance with her husband Craig. They also coauthored Reconciliation for Africa, a booklet on ethnic reconciliation currently used in many African countries. With Sue Russell, Médine co-authored Loved: Women Who Found Hope and Healing in Jesus.
Other Reading
Mary Slessor of Calabar: Biography of a Christian Woman; A Scottish Presbyterian Missionary in Africa by W.P. Livingstone
Exclusion and Embrace: A Theological Exploration of Identity, Otherness, and Reconciliation by Miroslav Volf
About William Shepherd: Among Kings: The Amazing Adventures of the Congo’s African American Livingstone and the Courageous People who Toppled King Leopold II by Joey O’Connor
Learn more about Hulda:
https://www.cbeinternational.org/content/women-scripture-and-mission#hulda
“Women Prophets in the Old Testament,” Priscilla Papers, by Christine Marchetti, April 29, 2018. https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/article/priscilla-papers-academic-journal/women-prophets-old-testament
“What is this Woman Doing Preaching in My Bible?” in Mutuality by Sara Ronnevik, October 13, 2014. https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/article/mutuality-blog-magazine/what-woman-doing-preaching-my-bible

Friday Aug 26, 2022
Friday Aug 26, 2022
This month on the “Women and Men Leading Together” thread, Rob and Layla speak with Sarah Cowan Johnson, ministry leader, and recently published author of Teach Your Children Well. From navigating unconscious biases to dealing with miss-titling, from egalitarian parenting to The X-Files, Sarah sheds light on what flourishing mixed-gender partnerships look like, both in the context of ministry and in the home!
Bio:
Sarah Cowan Johnson is a ministry trainer, consultant, and coach who works with church planters, pastors, and ministry leaders across the United States. She leads seminars for parents on family discipleship to help their children walk in the way of Jesus. She served with the Evangelical Covenant Church as an executive pastor and previously was a staff trainer and an area director for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. She is the cohost of The People of the Way podcast. Her book, Teach Your Children Well, was published this month by InterVarsity Press, and she and her husband have two sons and live in Providence. Find more from Sarah at her website, sarahcowanjohnson.com.
Other Reading
The Spiritually Vibrant Home, by Don Everts
Call Me Mother in Anglican Compass by Tish Harrison Warren
“Parenting as Partners” by Kathy Nesper
“Created for Life Together: Partnerships Between Men and Women Are Part of God’s Design” by Ruth Haley Barton

Friday Aug 19, 2022
Friday Aug 19, 2022
In this episode, host Angela sits down with Rev. Dr. Wilda Gafney, Bible scholar, episcopal priest and the Right Rev. Sam B. Hulsey Professor of Hebrew Bible at Brite Divinity School in Fort Worth, Texas. They discuss the importance of gender expansive Bible translation, which incorporates contextual consideration and raises the presence of women and feminine imagery that have been traditionally overlooked or underrepresented. Focusing on her latest work, A Women’s Lectionary for the Whole Church: Year W, she discusses how using gender expansive language enriches the reading, hearing, and application of the Biblical text. This lectionary also focuses on using explicit feminine God-language as a means of expanding our view and understanding of God. Words matter because they have the power to create or eliminate barriers to inclusion.
Guest Bio:
Womanist biblical scholar, Rev. Dr. Wil Gafney is the Right Rev. Sam B. Hulsey Professor of Hebrew Bible at Brite Divinity School in Fort Worth, Texas. She is the author of Womanist Midrash: A Reintroduction to Women of the Torah and of the Throne, a commentary on Nahum, Habakkuk, and Zephaniah in the Wisdom series; Daughters of Miriam: Women Prophets in Ancient Israel; and co-editor of The Peoples’ Bible and The Peoples’ Companion to the Bible. She is the author of a Women’s Lectionary for the Whole Church and translator of its biblical selections; the first two volumes, Year A and W (a standalone volume) were published in August. Volumes B and C are due in 2023 and 2024. She is currently writing a second volume of Womanist Midrash focusing on women in the Prophets.
Rev. Dr. Wil Gafney can be followed at www.wilgafney.com.
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wil.gafney
Twitter: @WilGafney
Resources:
A Women’s Lectionary for the Whole Church: https://cbeinternational.christianbook.com/womens-lectionary-the-whole-church-year/9781640651623/pd/65162X?event=ESRCG
Womanist Midrash: A Reintroduction to the Women of the Torah and the Throne: https://cbeinternational.christianbook.com/womanist-midrash-reintroduction-women-torah-throne/wilda-gafney/9780664239039/pd/239039?event=ESRCG
“She Is in Bitter Distress”: A Womanist Ethic of Advocacy: https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/article/mutuality-blog-magazine/she-bitter-distress-womanist-ethic-advocacy