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Women, Men, Mutuality, and the Bible CBE’s Mutuality Matters podcast is part of CBE International’s online library of free resources! Hosts of CBE’s Mutuality Matters team offer weekly conversations with leaders, pastors, authors, scholars, activists, and humanitarians on women, men, shared leadership, and Scripture. CBE International (Christians for Biblical Equality) advances the gospel by equipping women and men of all cultures, races, and classes to lead and serve as equals. Founded in 1989, CBE has supporters and ministry partners in over 100 denominations and 65 countries, and offers annual conferences, adult and youth curricula, a curated bookstore, multi-media resources, award-winning publications, and a blog. Learn more at cbeinternational.org.
Episodes
Thursday Jun 20, 2024
Thursday Jun 20, 2024
What could it look like for leaders to help their people embrace and embody a robust egalitarian conviction? “Emerging egalitarian” Dr. Jeff Liou, InterVarsity’s National Director of Theological Formation, joins Layla and Rob to reflect on his own journey with egalitarianism, and he offers a compelling picture of a theological formation process marked by humility, curiosity, deep community, and thoughtful encounters with difference.
00:00 Introduction
00:54 Guest Introduction: Jeff Liou's Background
05:17 Discussion on Egalitarian Theological Formation
15:18 Practical Advice for Egalitarian Leadership
22:03 Final Thoughts and Resources
Bio
Dr. Jeff Ming Liou is the National Director of Theological Formation for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship/USA. He is also an affiliate assistant professor of Christian ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, CA, where he received his Ph.D. in Theology and Culture. Jeff co-authored a book with Robert Chao Romero called Christianity and Critical Race Theory. Additionally, Liou has written papers on race and justice, Asian American Christianity, theological ethics, and political theology. Ordained in the Christian Reformed Church of North America, Liou has served as a campus minister, pastor, and university chaplain.
Related Resources
Jeff references the four quadrant quiz he created, click here to take. The quiz will ask for your email, but promises to not use it to contact you.
8 Ways The Church Can Advance Egalitarian Theology
Does Egalitarian Theology Have Anything To Say To People of Color?
Becoming Egalitarian: Reconciling Experience with Scripture
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests and do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Thursday Jun 13, 2024
Thursday Jun 13, 2024
In this episode of Mutuality Matters, hosts Tara and Todd Korpi welcome Pastors Mark and Michelle Benson, co-lead pastors from Dothan Assembly in Alabama. Mark and Michelle share their journey of co-pastoring, highlighting the biblical call for gender equality in leadership. They discuss the challenges and growth experienced in their ministry, the importance of recognizing each other's strengths, and navigating environments resistant to female leadership. The episode emphasizes the significance of knowing one’s calling, maintaining humility, and fostering strong, supportive relationships in ministry. Listeners also gain insights on how co-leadership can positively influence church culture and leadership practices.
00:00 Introduction to Mutuality Matters
00:24 Hosts' Banter and Jingle Discussion
01:36 Introducing Special Guests: Mark and Michelle Benson
03:37 Journey to Co-Pastoring
08:58 Challenges and Triumphs in Ministry
13:17 Navigating Co-Leadership
31:33 Encouragement for Listeners
33:50 Conclusion and Resources
Bios
Pastors Mark and Michele have been lead pastors of Dothan First Assembly of God since 2016 after serving at The Rock Family Worship Center based out of Huntsville, Alabama for over ten years. Their passion is to make a difference in the lives of others by showing them the love of Jesus Christ. Pastors Mark and Michele have three children; Taylor, Griffin, and Camryn.
Related Resources
Women and Men Leading Together: Co-Pastoring While Married
Women and Men Leading Together: “Exchanging a Muzzle for a Microphone” with Rici and Phil Skei
How to Find a Church that Empowers Women
Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests and do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Thursday Jun 06, 2024
Thursday Jun 06, 2024
In this episode of Mutuality Matters, host Mimi Haddad welcomes Dr. Marlon Winedt, a seasoned Bible translator, theologian, and philosopher. Dr. Winedt shares his vast experience in Bible translation, particularly his work with the Common Language Papiamintu Bible and assisting translation teams across the Caribbean and the Americas. He discusses the joys of translating the Bible into local languages, enhancing their prestige and accessibility. Dr. Winedt also delves into the complexities and cultural nuances involved in translation, the ethical responsibilities of translators, and how new translations can influence the understanding and application of biblical texts, especially regarding topics like women's roles and intercultural communication within the church and society.
00:00 Introduction to Mutuality Matters
00:25 Meet Dr. Marlon Winedt
01:54 The Joys of Bible Translation
03:50 Challenges in Translation
07:41 Cultural Misunderstandings
10:53 Translation Choices and Their Impact
15:59 Addressing Bias in Translations
22:24 Ensuring Clarity and Overcoming Bias
30:07 Rediscovering Women's Stories in History
30:52 Exploring Bible Translations
32:23 The Complexity of Translation
37:03 Monolingualism vs. Multilingualism
42:38 Translation and Gender Issues
47:39 Insights on Women in Scripture
52:27 Marriage and Family in Translation
57:03 Conclusion
Bio
Rev. Dr. Marlon Winedt, a theologian, philosopher, and Bible translator, earned his BA in Theology/Philosophy from the University of Steubenville, Ohio (magna cum laude 1985) and his Drs-MA in Philosophy (cum laude) from the University of Tilburg (1988). He completed post-graduate work in Bible translation and linguistics (1996, 2001), earning a PhD in Bible Translation (1999), all at the Free University of Amsterdam. Engaged in Bible translation for 35 years, he contributed to the Common Language Papiamentu Bible and serves as a Bible Translation Consultant for the United Bible Societies, mentoring teams across the Caribbean and the Americas. He also trains translation consultants worldwide. Marlon, a pastor, radio host, and columnist, contributes to academic and popular discourse in various languages, with his fields of interests being, among others, biblical languages, Greco-Roman world, Performance Criticism and Creolistics. He resides with his wife Sandra on Curaçao, engaging in diverse international teaching roles.
Related Resources
Women and Words: Exploring Women’s Biblical Equality Through Bible Translation with Dr. Roy Ciampa
Women and Words: Why Are There So Many Bible Translations? With Dr. Jeffrey Miller
eLearning: Beyond Bias: Aligning towards God’s Vision for Women and Men in Bible Translation
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests and do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Thursday May 16, 2024
Thursday May 16, 2024
This second installment of a two-part episode is a part of a new segment of the Mutuality Matters podcast, hosted by Tara and Todd Korpi. We’re joined by Andrew Bartlett and Terran Williams, two biblical teachers who have written extensively on women and the church. In this episode, Andrew and Terran discuss the concept of the 'tiebreaker rule' in marriage and argue for a mutualist perspective that emphasizes equal partnership over hierarchy. They talk about Junia as an apostle in Romans 16:7 and dispel common misconceptions about Paul's views on women, underscoring his empowerment of women leaders in the early church.
00:00 Welcome to Mutuality Matters: Exploring Gender Equality in Leadership
00:34 Debunking the Tiebreaker Rule in Marriage
01:15 Mutualism in Practice: Real-Life Marriage Dynamics
04:21 Scriptural Insights on Mutual Decision-Making
05:05 Junia's Role and Women's Leadership in the Early Church
11:14 Paul's Example: Empowering Women in Ministry
14:32 Final Thoughts: Encouragement for Men and Women in Leadership
19:26 Connecting with the Speakers and Further Resources
20:59 Closing Remarks and Invitation to Support CBE International
Bios
Andrew Bartlett QC is based in London and is a highly rated international arbitrator with a wide range of experience in dispute resolution in numerous locations. He has a BA in Theology (University of Gloucestershire) and has served as an elder and a churchwarden in various churches. He is the author of Men and Women in Christ: Fresh Light From Biblical Texts.
Terran Williams is a seasoned pastor, church planter, and Bible teacher to skeptics and believers alike. He authored Biblica’s Reach4Life youth Bible, with a print of three million copies in 30 languages, What’s so Amazing about Scripture, and How God Sees Women: The End of Patriarchy.
Related Resources
How God Sees Women: The End of Patriarchy
Men and Women in Christ: Fresh Light From Biblical Texts
Andrew and Terran’s “Response to Mike Winger”
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests and do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Thursday May 02, 2024
Thursday May 02, 2024
In this episode of Mutuality Matters, hosted by CBE International, Dr. Roy Ciampa discusses the significance of Bible translation and its impact on women worldwide. As a seasoned Bible translator and professor, Dr. Ciampa highlights how translations can shape perceptions of gender roles, stressing the importance of considering cultural contexts to avoid perpetuating patriarchal interpretations. He delves into the challenges of domesticating and foreignizing translations, the misinterpretation of biblical texts regarding women, and how translations might better honor women's roles in biblical texts and today’s context. The episode also explores the influence of English Bible translations globally, particularly concerning women's leadership and addressing abuse. Dr. Ciampa expresses his hope for future translations to more fully recognize women's worth and contributions, in alignment with an egalitarian view of scripture that sees men and women as equal in authority and leadership in all spheres of life.
00:00 Welcome to Mutuality Matters
00:31 Introducing Dr. Roy Ciampa: A Scholar's Journey
04:17 The Impact of Bible Translation on Gender and Race
08:24 Exploring the Greco-Roman Context of Biblical Texts
15:35 The Challenge of Domesticating and Foreignizing Translations
20:56 Elevating Women's Stories in Scripture and History
33:31 Dreams for Future Bible Translations and Women's Roles
35:08 Closing Thoughts and Resources
Bio
Dr. Ciampa has authored numerous scholarly essays on NT themes, especially on the interpretation of the Old Testament within the New Testament, but also on issues more directly related to Bible translation (including articles that address translation issues in Acts 17:11 and 1 Corinthians 7:1 that became footnotes in the CSB. He is also that author of a book on The Presence and Function of Scripture in Gal 1 and 2, and co-author with Brian Rosner of the Pillar Commentary on 1 Corinthians. Roy is an ordained minister.
Related Resources
Women and Words: Exploring Women’s Biblical Equality Through Bible Translation with Dr. Roy Ciampa
How the New Testament Turned Marriage in the Ancient World on Its “Head”
A Religion of “Women and Children”? A Christian Woman’s Place in the Greco-Roman World Before AD 300
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests and do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Thursday Apr 18, 2024
Thursday Apr 18, 2024
This two-part episode is the first in a new segment of the Mutuality Matters podcast, hosted by Tara and Todd Korpi. In this segment we discuss headship theology––dynamics of power, authority, and women and men, and how they function in Christian homes, the local church and society as a whole. We’re joined by Andrew Bartlett and Terran Williams, two biblical teachers who have written extensively on women and the church. They provide exceptional insight in this interview, allowing us to establish a strong foundation for understanding what headship theology is and how to think biblically about it.
Bios
Andrew Bartlett KC is based in London and is a highly rated international arbitrator with a wide range of experience in dispute resolution in numerous locations. He has a BA in Theology (University of Gloucestershire) and has served as an elder and a churchwarden in various churches. He is the author of Men and Women in Christ: Fresh Light From Biblical Texts.
Terran Williams is a seasoned pastor, church planter, and Bible teacher to skeptics and believers alike. He authored Biblica’s Reach4Life youth Bible, with a print of three million copies in 30 languages, What’s so Amazing about Scripture, and How God Sees Women: The End of Patriarchy.
Related Resource
How God Sees Women: The End of Patriarchy
Men and Women in Christ: Fresh Light From Biblical Texts
Andrew and Terran’s “Response to Mike Winger”
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests and do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Thursday Apr 11, 2024
Thursday Apr 11, 2024
This episode begins with news! Layla and Rob’s podcast thread is changing, from a solitary focus on how mixed-gender ministry partnerships work in the field to a wider discussion about how egalitarians can practically engage not just interpersonal dynamics, but systems, theology, culture, and more. And the best guests to talk about this shift? Layla and Rob! Join the hosts as they answer listener-generated questions about podcasting as a medium, what they’ve learned along the way, their own history as partners, and what their hopes are for the church going forward.
00:00 Welcome to Mutuality Matters: Embracing Egalitarian Convictions
00:46 Shifting Focus: Broadening the Conversation Beyond Ministry Partnerships
01:56 Celebrating Our Journey: A Self-Interview on Mixed Gender Partnerships
05:24 Listener Q&A: Insights and Anecdotes from Behind the Scenes
09:06 Challenges and Opportunities: Learning from Our Podcasting Experience
20:51 Reflecting on Partnership: Our Personal Journey and Future Hopes
28:46 Gratitude and Goodbyes: Wrapping Up the Podcast Thread
Bios:
Layla Van Gerpen has served with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship for over twenty years in California and Nevada. She also serves on the preaching team at her church, Midtown Vineyard. She is passionate about developing leaders, especially around areas of race and gender. As a Lebanese/Japanese daughter of immigrants, Layla grew up with a deep love for hospitality, cross-cultural relationships, and advocacy work. Together with her husband, Daniel, they find joy raising their two boys, Everett and Grant.
Rob Dixon lives in central California with his wife Amy and their four children, and works as a campus minister with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. He earned a Doctor of Intercultural Studies degree at Fuller Theological Seminary, where he focused on discerning the attributes of flourishing mixed-gender ministry partnerships. Rob is the author of Together in Ministry: Women and Men in Flourishing Partnerships. In his free time, Rob roots for the Dodgers, teaches at Fresno Pacific University, and plays as much pickleball as possible. Find him online at drrobdixon.com.
Related Resources:
Women and Men Leading Together: The Value of Shared Partnerships from a Gen. Z Perspective with Tim Bushra
Women and Men Leading Together: “Call Her What She Is” with Maddie Cummings and Brooke Pland
Women and Men Leading Together: The Journey to Mutuality with Kim and Andrew Feil
Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests and do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Thursday Apr 04, 2024
Thursday Apr 04, 2024
This episode of the Mutuality Matters podcast, hosted by CBE International, features Dr. Roy Ciampa, the S. Lewis and N. W. Armstrong Professor of Religion at Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Dr. Ciampa discusses the significance of Bible translation in promoting women’s biblical equality, his background as a missionary, professor, and Bible translator, and the process translation teams undergo to resolve translation challenges. Highlights include the impact of Western translations like the NIV and ESV on global Bible translation, specific New Testament passages supporting women's shared leadership, and common translation issues facing the church today. Dr. Ciampa also addresses translation choices related to female and male relationships in Scripture. The episode emphasizes CBE's mission of advocating for equal authority and leadership of women and men in the home, church, and world through biblical scholarship and translation.
00:00 Welcome to Mutuality Matters
00:31 Introducing Dr. Roy Ciampa: A Renowned Bible Translator
00:54 Dr. Ciampa's Journey in Bible Translation and Scholarship
04:36 The Conservative Nature of Bible Translation
06:46 The Influence of Western Translations on Global Bible Translation Efforts
19:52 Navigating Translation Challenges: From Legal Issues to Cultural Contexts
23:55 Addressing Translation Issues Affecting Women in Scripture
29:41 Exploring Key New Testament Passages on Women's Leadership
41:51 Supporting CBE International and Mutuality Matters
Guest Bio
Dr. Ciampa has authored numerous scholarly essays on NT themes, especially on the interpretation of the Old Testament within the New Testament, but also on issues more directly related to Bible translation (including articles that address translation issues in Acts 17:11 and 1 Corinthians 7:1 that became footnotes in the CSB. He is also that author of a book on The Presence and Function of Scripture in Gal 1 and 2, and co-author with Brian Rosner of the Pillar Commentary on 1 Corinthians. Roy is an ordained minister.
Related Resources
CBE’s eLearning Course: Beyond Bias: Aligning towards God’s Vision for Women and Men in Bible Translation
CBE’s Bible Translation Project: Creating Gender-Accurate Bible Translations
Correcting Caricatures: Women and Bible Translation
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests and do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Saturday Mar 30, 2024
Saturday Mar 30, 2024
Sit down this week with hosts Angela and Liz as they chat with Rev. Dwayne Jackson. Rev. Jackson shares his expertise about working with the Reformed Church of America and how the stories from his fellow sisters in ministry catapulted his everyday practice of mutuality. He also describes his love for those at the margins and his pastoral position as he pastors alongside his wife as equals. Tune in and hear not only his story but HER story as well!
Guest Bio
Born and raised as a son of the Mott Haven Reformed Church Dwayne Jackson served in the role of deacon then as an elder where he worked with the finance committee, youth ministry, Sunday school, Christian education, choir, and men’s ministry. His educational accomplishments include a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering from New York Institute of Technology with a Minor in Computer Science, and a Master of Divinity from New Brunswick Theological Seminary. Dwayne was invited to serve as a Student Pastor of the First Reformed Church of Astoria, following his ordination in January of 2000 he accepted the call to continue as their Minister of Word and Sacrament where he remained until June of 2017.
In the community of Astoria and Long Island City, Queens Rev. Jackson served as the Clergy Liaison for the local police command. His work involves mediation between members of the community and helping them to build a peaceful relationship that will benefit both the local citizens and the patrol officers, where mutual respect is fostered. He provided spiritual guidance and assistance for the members of the Astoria Senior Citizen’s Center and mentoring for young children, teens and young adults at the community center.
Rev. Jackson has been a part of the African American / Black Council in a number of capacities. He served the RCA as the Coordinator of Social Witness and Social Justice and served on the RCA Commission for Women. In 2021 Rev. Jackson was elected into the position of VP of the General Synod of the Reformed Church in America and concluded his service as President from 2022 to 2023
Serving as Co-Pastor of the Second Reformed Church of Hackensack along with the Rev. Anna M. Jackson, Rev. Dwayne Jackson has promised to dedicate his life to preaching and teaching the un-compromised Word of God to all the people of God and making Disciples for Christ.
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests and do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Friday Mar 22, 2024
Friday Mar 22, 2024
In this episode, Kim Dickson and Amber Burgess interview Dr. Karen H. Jobes about Esther. As a lifetime teaching professor, Dr. Jobes skillfully explains the academic complexities of Esther in a way that brings her listeners along to understand the significance of Esther’s story in the broader canon. She describes how Mordechai’s challenge to Esther that she is in her position “for such a time as this,” causes Esther to come into her own, fulfilling who God had created her to be. Dr. Jobes demonstrates how Mordechai and Esther work in mutuality, both submitting in obedience to one another’s authority. She completes the interview highlighting how the text of Esther demonstrates the scriptural redemptive pattern of bringing life from death.
Bio
Karen H. Jobes is the Gerald F. Hawthorne Professor Emerita of New Testament Greek and Exegesis at Wheaton College and Graduate School (Illinois). She earned her doctorate in Biblical Hermeneutics at Westminster Theological Seminary (Philadelphia, 1995) and has served as a tenured professor at Westmont College (Santa Barbara, CA, 1996–2005) and at Wheaton (2005–2015). She was a translator on the NIV Committee for Bible Translation for many years and is the author of several books and many journal articles. Her research specialty has been the Septuagint as a literary and exegetical background for New Testament interpretation. Jobes is a member of Oreland Evangelical Presbyterian Church and serves as an elder on Session there.
Other Resources
Contact Dr. Karen Jobes at karen.jobes@wheaton.edu
Books Referenced in Interview:
Karen H. Jobes, Esther: The NIV Application Commentary from Biblical text . . . to contemporary life.
Karen H. Jobes, The Alpha-Text of Esther: In Character and Relationship to the Masoretic Text, SBL Dissertation Series 153.
Michael V. Fox, Character & Ideology in the Book of Esther: Second Edition with a New Postscript on a Decade of Esther Scholarship.
Summary of Karen Jobes as the first woman Evangelical Theological Society (ETS) woman president in: Making Room for Women: 2023 ETS Annual Meeting Recap by Kimberly Dickson
More CBE Resources on Esther
Women in Scripture and Mission: Esther
More Than a Beautiful Body: Star Wars, Beauty Standards, and the Imago Dei
Power Brokers: Vashti, Mordecai, and Esther
Women Leaders Navigate the Patriarchal Systems of Family and Church: Young Lee Hertig
Esther: When God Calls for Disobedience
Character Counts
Calling all Deborah’s, Esther’s and Junias
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.