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Women, Men, Mutuality, and the Bible CBE’s Mutuality Matters podcast is part of CBE International’s online library of free resources! Hosts of CBE’s Mutuality Matters team offer weekly conversations with leaders, pastors, authors, scholars, activists, and humanitarians on women, men, shared leadership, and Scripture. CBE International (Christians for Biblical Equality) advances the gospel by equipping women and men of all cultures, races, and classes to lead and serve as equals. Founded in 1989, CBE has supporters and ministry partners in over 100 denominations and 65 countries, and offers annual conferences, adult and youth curricula, a curated bookstore, multi-media resources, award-winning publications, and a blog. Learn more at cbeinternational.org.
Episodes

Friday Dec 09, 2022
(New Voices) Jesus and Women with Dr. Lynn Cohick
Friday Dec 09, 2022
Friday Dec 09, 2022
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Show Notes
CBE International’s Mutuality Magazine Winter Issue tackles the topic of Jesus and Women. To help us think deeply about this and how it affects our discipleship and reading of Scripture, Dr. Lynn Cohick comes on the podcast to talk with Erin and Blake.
Bio
Dr. Cohick presently serves as Provost and Dean of Academic Affairs of Northern Seminary in Lisle, Illinois. She teaches New Testament and is leading the development of DMin and MA programs in women's studies, and the Women's Center for Leadership at Northern Seminary. She has her bachelor’s degree from Messiah College, and a Ph.D. in New Testament and Christian Origins from the University of Pennsylvania. After 18 years as professor of New Testament and Biblical Studies at Wheaton College she accepted the invitation to join Denver Seminary as their Provost / Dean. Dr. Cohick has also taught at Messiah College and Nairobi Evangelical Graduate School of Theology. She is the author of Christian Women in the Patristic World: Their Influence, Authority, and Legacy in the Second Through Fifth Centuries, as well as Women in the World of the Earliest Christians, and commentaries on Phillipians and Ephesians among many other articles and publications. She contributed a chapter about Jesus and the Samaritan woman in Vindicating the Vixens: Revisiting Sexualized, Vilified, and Marginalized Women in the Bible. She enjoys preaching from the Bible, teaching on matters pertaining to women’s ministry, and exploring issues pertaining to the historical relationship between Jews and Christians.
Other Reading
Vindicating the Vixens: Revisiting Sexualized, Vilified, and Marginalized Women in the Bible.
Christian Women in the Patristic World: Their Influence, Authority, and Legacy in the Second Through Fifth Centuries
The Samaritan Woman's Story: Reconsidering John 4 After #ChurchToo
Center for Women and Leadership at Northern Seminary
Alabaster Jar Podcast

Friday Dec 02, 2022
Friday Dec 02, 2022
In this second episode in a two-part interview of Mutuality Matters (Global Impact), Frankie Quirke explains how she became involved in Tearfund’s work with gender and equality and how it grew to include programs designed to minimize sexual and gender-based violence. She speaks of new initiatives and horizons that more fully include the whole family by sharing stories from the field that illustrate the work.
Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Bio:
Francesca Quirke is Tearfund's sexual and gender-based violence program manager. Franky is passionate about the church championing gender justice and has been supporting Tearfund's work on preventing sexual and gender-based violence for seven years. Tearfund's “Transforming Masculinities” approach engages faith leaders and faith communities to shift harmful gender norms and create new equitable relationships and practices and is now being run in over seventeen countries. Francesca lives in Brighton in the UK and holds a masters in gender and international development from the London School of Economics and Political Science.
Other Reading & Resources
- Created To Thrive: Created Abuse-Gree Faith Communities, edited by Elizabeth Beyer.

Friday Nov 25, 2022
(Women & Men) The Power of “One-Degree Adjustments” with Rev. Tim Breen
Friday Nov 25, 2022
Friday Nov 25, 2022
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Show Notes
Join us this week on Mutuality Matters Rev. Tim Breen helps us consider how continual “one-degree adjustments” cultivate a culture of mutuality in the church. Tim also shares his personal journey toward egalitarianism, as well as helpful reflections on Scripture.
Bio
Rev. Tim Breen serves as the lead pastor of First Reformed Church in Orange City, a position he has held since 2010. Tim received his bachelor's from Northwestern College and his Master of Divinity from Western Theological Seminary. His ministry interests are preaching, church growth, intercultural learning, and staff and church administration. On Saturdays, you can find him cheering on his beloved Michigan Wolverines.
Find Tim at www.telosblog.com, follow him at @tsbreen on Twitter.
Other Reading
3 Practical Changes Churches Can Make To Empower Women - CBE International
How A Pastor and A Church Changed Their Stance on Women in Ministry - CBE International

Friday Nov 18, 2022
Let’s See Color! With guest Michelle T. Sanchez
Friday Nov 18, 2022
Friday Nov 18, 2022
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Show Notes
As disciples striving to reflect the true nature of God through Christ, we must have courage to be different than most people in the world, including how we deal with racism. Michelle T. Sanchez, author of the newly released book, Color-Courageous Discipleship: Follow Jesus, Dismantle Racism, and Build Beloved Community, shares with Angela her belief that it is impossible to separate race, discipleship, and our relationship with God. Listen in as they discuss both the theological foundation for her assertion and the practical implications for how we live "color-courageously" daily, choosing to see color so that we can dismantle racism, pursue equity, and build beloved community.
To receive a sneak peek of Color-Courageous Discipleship: Follow Jesus, Dismantle Racism, and Build Beloved Community (first chapter) and God’s Beloved Community: A Picture Book (first few pages) text “courage” to 44144. Doing this will also subscribe you to receive more information and updates from Michelle T. Sanchez.
Bio
Michelle T. Sanchez, MDiv, ThM, is the senior discipleship and evangelism leader of the Evangelical Covenant Church, a vibrant multiethnic denomination of more than 875 congregations. Michelle completed seminary degrees at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and spiritual direction training at Boston College. She is a conference speaker and a columnist with Outreach magazine. Michelle has enjoyed engaging with colorful cultures in over thirty countries and territories around the world. She and her husband, Mickey, live with their children in the Chicago area.
Other Reading and Resources:
“Color-Courageous Biblical Equality” at CBE’s 2022 International Conference in Atlanta, Georgia (Video)
Color-Courageous Discipleship: Follow Jesus, Dismantle Racism, and Build Beloved Community by Michelle T. Sanchez
Learn more about Michelle at https://michelletsanchez.com/

Friday Nov 11, 2022
Friday Nov 11, 2022
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Show Notes
Why are there not as many women ministers? Dr. Susan Harris Howell talks with hosts Blake and Erin about her work on the socialization of women and men. There are several variables that contribute to the diminishing of women, such as the gendered language we use daily without thought. In this episode, we learn what these variables are and how we can counter their effects. Be sure to pick up Dr. Howell’s book, “Buried Talents” at the CBE bookstore and visit her website to learn more: https://www.susanharrishowell.com/
Bio
Dr. Susan Harris Howell is a writer, speaker, and professor of Psychology, based in Central Kentucky. After graduating from Campbellsville College, she went on to the University of Louisville for her graduate work, receiving a Master of Education with an emphasis in marriage and family counseling and a Doctor of Education with an emphasis in counseling and development. She worked as a therapist before beginning her teaching career. She has written extensively on the topic of biblical gender equality. Dr. Howell teaches classes on gender studies and integrating faith and psychology at Campbellsville University in Kentucky. She is the author of Buried Talents: Overcoming Gendered Socialization to Answer God’s Call, as well as a number of articles about the importance of following our own gifts and calling rather than letting others dictate to us which pursuits are appropriate for women and men.
Other Reading
Buried Talents by Susan Harris Howell
The Desk: Four Lessons to Help Women Tackle the Impossible by Susan Harris Howell
No Longer Male and Female: Why Do We Still Separate by Gender in Church? by Vanessa Bickle

Monday Nov 07, 2022
Monday Nov 07, 2022
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
Show Notes
In this first episode of a two-part interview on Mutuality Matters, “Global Impact” thread, Frankie Quirke explains how Tearfund’s work grew to include programs designed to minimize sexual and gender-based violence in the home, church, and community. Tearfund’s community-centered approach reduced the stigma experienced by survivors of rape and helped to make their churches places of safety and healing. Furthermore, in a community atmosphere, it addressed poor theology that held men as superior to women, reflecting on sin and God’s intention for flourishing humanity in relationship with God, one another, and creation.
Bio
Francesca Quirke is Tearfund's sexual and gender-based violence program manager.
Franky is passionate about the church championing gender justice and has been supporting Tearfund's work on preventing sexual and gender-based violence for seven years. Tearfund's Transforming Masculinities approach engages faith leaders and faith communities to shift harmful gender norms and create new equitable relationships and practices and is now being run in over seventeen countries. Francesca lives in Brighton in the UK and holds a master's degree in gender and international development from the London School of Economics and Political Science.
Other Reading & Resources
1. Created To Thrive: Created Abuse-Gree Faith Communities, edited by Elizabeth Beyer.
2. CBE’s “Ideas have Consequences” Conference Recordings
3. The Headship of Men and the Abuse of Women: Are They Related in Any Way? By Kevin Giles
4. Tearfund podcast: Faith in Development-Season 2: Gender and Protection

Friday Oct 28, 2022
Friday Oct 28, 2022
In this special episode of Mutuality Matters, hosts Layla and Rob interview three gender violence experts to learn how individuals and churches can be intentional about building safe and thriving mixed-gender ministry partnerships. Topics include the language of domestic violence, himpathy, why men batter, and practical steps for accountability and prevention in churches. Listen to this conversation that truly spanned the world, from Australia to the US to Great Britain, and learn how to prevent domestic violence within your community. Created to Thrive contributors highlighted in this episode are Natalie Collins, Chuck Derry, and Nicola (Nicky) Lock.
Guest Bios
- Natalie Collins is a gender justice specialist working with a number of organizations in the UK. Natalie speaks and writes on understanding and ending gender injustice nationally and internationally. Learn more at https://www.nataliecollins.info/
- Chuck Derry has been involved in efforts to end men’s violence against women since 1983. In 1994, he co-founded the Gender Violence Institute in Clearwater, Minnesota, an organization that among other things offers training on the dynamics of domestic violence. Reach Chuck at gvi@frontiernet.net.
- Nicola (Nicky) Lock serves as a course coordinator and lecturer in pastoral counseling at St. Mark's National Theological Center in Barton, Australia. Nicky has over 25 years of experience as a counselor, therapist, and educator. Find Nicky on LinkedIn and Facebook.
Other Reading

Friday Oct 21, 2022
Friday Oct 21, 2022
The opinions expressed in CBE’s Mutuality Matters’ podcast are those of its hosts or guests and do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of CBE International or its members or chapters worldwide. The designations employed in this podcast and the presentation of content therein do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of CBE concerning the legal status of any country, area or territory or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers.
In acknowledgment of October being Domestic Violence Awareness month, this special episode of Mutuality Matters features a panel of Created to Thrive contributors who sit down with host Angela and share their thoughts about how the church can help people find healing from the trauma of domestic violence by creating safe spaces for women and families. As leaders, we have an opportunity to preach, teach and model healthy relationships between women and men grounded in respect and mutuality that honors the image of God reflected by both. Guests on today’s episode include Dr. Antoinette Alvarado, Dr. Jeanne Porter-King, and Rev. Johnrice Newton.
Bio
Rev. Johnrice Newton, a trained RN chaplain, is the founder and president of Tapestry Ministries, Inc., a nonprofit organization that offers a myriad of programs and services including providing emergency resources for women affected by domestic abuse. She published her book in 2016 titled Healing Voices: Women of Faith Who Survived Abuse Speak Out, Volume 1.
Dr. Jeanne Porter King is the founder and president of TransPorter Group Inc., a consulting practice that specializes in leadership development, diversity and inclusion training, process facilitation, and influence coaching. She has authored many books including Influence Starts with “I”: A Woman’s Guide to Unleashing the Power of Leading from Within, and Effective Change Around You.
Dr. Antoinette Alvarado is the co-pastor of Grace Church International, founder and executive director of My Sister’s Keeper Foundation for Women, and president of Targeted Living Coaching & Consulting, LLC. A dynamic preacher, teacher, and workshop presenter, she is also the author of Run and Not be Weary: The Pursuit of Purpose and Destiny among several other titles.
Other Reading:
Created to Thrive: https://cbeinternational.christianbook.com/created-thrive-cultivating-abuse-free-communities/9781939971906/pd/971900?event=ESRCG

Friday Oct 14, 2022
Friday Oct 14, 2022
Trigger Warning: This episode contains discussions on details pertaining to domestic violence. Listener discretion is advised.
In this episode, hosts Erin and Blake talk with contributing authors, Rebecca Kotz and Annette Oltmans, about their chapters in the new CBE International publication, Created to Thrive: Cultivating Abuse-Free Communities. They discuss how forms of abuse are covert and easy to dismiss while also helping us understand how we can help and not be a fresh source of harm to victims of abuse. Leaders, friends, and those wanting to address abuse will learn a great deal from this episode.
Be sure to pick up a copy of Created to Thrive and to connect with these other resources from our podcast guests: www.rebeccakotz.com and https://themendproject.com/.
If you are experiencing domestic violence and would like help, contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233.
Bios:
Rebecca Kotz is an advocate, speaker, community organizer, activist, liberation educator, consultant, and writer on sexual politics and feminism. She has worked at various social change and antiviolence organizations in Minnesota. She founded and facilitates a program for convicted male offenders, Men Accountable for Sexual Exploitation. She is currently finishing her master’s degree in social justice at Prescott College in Arizona. Find more of her work at www.rebeccakotz.com
Annette Oltmans (Founder and chairman of the board of directors of the M3ND Project) is a philanthropist and passionate human rights advocate. She is a survivor. Annette’s personal experiences of recovery and extensive field research into the topics of Original Abuse and Double Abuse® ignited Annette’s passion to found The M3ND Project in 2016. She conceptualized the term Double Abuse® naming the behaviors causing complex trauma (CPTSD) to victim survivors. In addition to this work, she serves on the board of Pepperdine University’s Boone Center for the Family and is a trustee of Northrise University in Zambia. Her writing on the topics of abuse, domestic violence, and bullying, has been published in AACC, Teen Vogue, OC Register, and other publications.
Other Reading:
“Are We Continuing to Sideline Women in Conversations about Abuse?” by Katherine Spearing
“He Made Her Play the Harlot: Judges 19 through the Lens of Domestic Abuse” by Evelyn Sweerts-Vermeulen
“Monica of Hippo: Influential Church Mother and Domestic Abuse Survivor” by Olivia Brokaw

Friday Oct 07, 2022
Friday Oct 07, 2022
On this week’s episode, hosts Mimi and Kim meet with Pauline Hassan Burkey to discuss her journey towards belonging as an immigrant to the United States. As a small child she, her mother, and her baby brother made the journey from a Kenyan refugee camp to San Diego, California, where she first learned to relate to the various cultures in which she was immersed. She also reflects on her mother breaking the Sudanese cultural codes around a woman’s place. Despite criticism from the women in her community, she served as an advocate and community organizer for her refugee community in San Diego, often the only woman serving among all men. Her mother modeled for Pauline how women can be whomever they are meant to be.
Bio: Pauline is the daughter of South-Sudanese refugees who resettled in the United States in 1994. She grew up in City Heights, a densely populated and vibrant community of immigrants and refugees in East San Diego. She studied Interpersonal and Organizational Communications and Journalism at Azusa Pacific University. She’s worked with refugee and immigrant communities, then moved to fund programs across sub-Saharan Africa. In 2016, she and her husband moved to Rwanda to continue working in international development. She is back in the United States and works as a program manager for PICO California, the largest multi-faith community organizing non-profit in California. Pauline married her college sweetheart Kenny. They currently live in Sacramento and recently welcomed their first child.
Other Reading:
Which Women Matter to God by Jill Lin https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/article/mutuality-blog-magazine/which-women-matter-god
Advocating for Equality Among the Marginalized by Nell Green
https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/audio/advocating-equality-among-marginalized